After the Family Conference Southern Region in Austin, we got an
oppurtunity to sit with Barnabas Thirumeni. We asked Thirumeni a few
questions that we could not ask during the conference, due to lack of
time. Barnabas Thirumeni answered our queries patiently and
clearly.Sharing the following with all, as it may be useful. It is Thirumeni's
handling of one of these questions. I may have missed out some points by
mistake and the translations may be incorrect, due to my ignorance, kindly
excuse
- It would be nice if we can see Thirumeni's
response in conversational style,as though Thirumeni is answering us,
instead of as an essay.
Regards,
Mathew Samuel
Austin, TX
Original Question:
===================
God in his infinite wisdom knows even our thoughts. Then why are we
repeating the same prayers over and over, as if He was not listening
to us the first time. Is it just to make our service longer? Is there
a theological reason?
Mar Barnabas explains:
Why do we need to pray?
=======================
There is nothing that our God does not know. Then why have been told
to ask for our needs? ("Ask and it will be given to you..")
From our side, there should be a receptivity (ability to receive) to
effectively receive the blessings from above. We must be transformed
so that we may be able to receive God's blessings.
When we ask with the sincere consiousness of our needs, we get
answers. ["Avashya Bodhathode yaachikumbol utharam labhikkum"].
We have a God who sees our needs as His own. Just like a father or a
mother knows the child's needs.Yet, the prayers are needed to make a
difference on our side.By prayer, we develop a conciousness for our
true needs(Avashyabodham), we increase in our faith and our sense of
dependence on the Lord, we surrender ourselves before God, it is for
these experiences that we need to pray. We need to pray with
repentance, with tears.
There are various parables which show seekers as asking persistently
and the Master(or King or Lord) responding, sometimes the response
seems to be to end the "irritation"(for lack of a better word) of the
persistence.["Shallyam Maratte!"].
In Luke 18, we see the parable of a widow...["Shallyam Maratte!"] The
judge who feared neither God nor man vindicated the widow just so
that she stops bothering him. However, we should not picture God
exactly like a irritant master - the prayers are there to make the
change within ourselves.Sometimes our prayers are not realistic,
sometimes the prayers may be selfish, sometimes the needs we ask for
may not really be needed by us, though we may not realise. So
sometimes the answer to us may be a "No, you dont need that now".
So our prayers are not for God's repentance, not to create a change
in the hardened heart of God, our God's heart is already changed,
always willing to accept us inspite of our failings.
Prayer increases Faith in God.
------------------------------
We reach the fullness of Faith by prayer. It is when this happens
that God can work. We see in the Bible God first increasing the faith
of people before healing them. Consider the deaf and dumb man(Luke
7:32 ff)He touched his ears, spat and touched his tongue, sighed and
said "Ephathatha".Jesus did all this on him(as opposed to just
commanding that he be healed), This He did to increase his faith,
before actually healing Him.See the parable of the two blind men -
(St. Matthew 9:27 ff)..God knew they had come to be healed, He asks
them if they believed He could indeed heal them, thus assessing their
faith, He healed..God can only work where there is faith.
Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever.
There is a story said by one Mr. M Thomas who has now passed away. A
son asks his father for a camera. The father tells the child" You are
too young now to handle a camera, if you get one now, you will not be
able to operate it properly, as a result, it will go bad and you
yourselves will be depressed. So wait till you grow up, then I will
buy you the best camera."
Many times, our Lord's answer may be in this manner. We do not know.
Sometimes the prayers are answered instantly, sometimes He asks us to
wait.So, in summary, the prayers are not to change God.
Formulation of Prayer forms:
==============================
As per our tradition, we had only the Lord's prayer in the early
times. Then the different parts of the Kauma began to take
shape. "Hail Mary" was an appendix added later. The Kauma inculcates
many aspects of worship. It is a complete prayer in itself.
How many times to pray this now? As it developed, it was thought of
as praying the Kauma at the beginning and end of each prayer. The
tradition came about to pray atleast 3 times a day – in the morning,
noon and evening. So each time if we have the Kauma twice, we began
to have the practice of repeating the Kauma 6 times a day. Actually
there are other times we pray as per our tradition, 7 times a day. So
we actually had the Kauma repeated about 14 times a day atleast. But
today, people do not find enough time, thus these prayers are advised
for Sanyasis and monks. For people in family life every thing is an
adjustment today. But the advice is atleast pray the Kauma daily.
How many times to pray?
=======================
Now why so many times? How many times should we kiss a child we love?
We kiss the child once, then we kiss the child again.. why kiss
again? Is the kiss the first time not enough? No, we kiss again, then
again, then again and again..
Many things in life are not bound by reason. Each time we kiss the
child our experience is special and unique.
Think of two lovers talking..how long do they need to talk? They talk
for hours together!
St.Francis of Assissi,(I think) used to pray "My Lord and my God" "My
Lord and my God" again and again and again all night!
This is a spiritual experience. Each time we pray our experience is
unique.
More than reasons or logic like how long is the prayer, is the
feeling of the heart("ManoBhavam") and the spiritual ecstacy that
counts here.Sometimes when we pray, we enjoy a spiritual bliss in
half an hour of prayer, the next day, we may only need 5 minutes for
the same experience.
However, in out public worship, we have tried to maintain a standard,
so that our prayers are not too long, or too short, to provide a
balance – to provide a guideline to pray even if we are not feeling
like praying on a given day - in arriving at the spiritual
experience.
"Prayer is the sincere desire of the soul". We express it time and
again. The first time's experience is not the experience the second
time, which is still different from the next time.
Holy are thou O God, Holy art thou Almighty, Holy art thou Immortal,
Crucified for us, have mercy on us! He died in the past on the cross
for our sakes, today he is ready to suffer other sufferings for our
sake. As we meditate on these and pray, it has a whole new meaning,
when we recite slowly, when we meditate and pray, the spiritual
experience increases. Then it will not matter how long or how many
times we are repeating.
How do we know if our prayers are correct?
===========================================
We simply need to put forward our needs in prayer as we see them, and
submit before the will of God as Jesus did - 'Lord, if possible, let
this cup of suffering pass by me, but not my will, let your will be
done'. We should train ourselves to pray the same way.
At the same time we must pray to save us from tests beyond our
strengths.
We must pray to give strength to stand up to all tests and
tribulations.
"Shakthikku apparamaaya pareekshayil ninnu rakshikkaname, ennu
praarthikkanam"
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianOrthodox/message/8279
oppurtunity to sit with Barnabas Thirumeni. We asked Thirumeni a few
questions that we could not ask during the conference, due to lack of
time. Barnabas Thirumeni answered our queries patiently and
clearly.Sharing the following with all, as it may be useful. It is Thirumeni's
handling of one of these questions. I may have missed out some points by
mistake and the translations may be incorrect, due to my ignorance, kindly
excuse
- It would be nice if we can see Thirumeni's
response in conversational style,as though Thirumeni is answering us,
instead of as an essay.
Regards,
Mathew Samuel
Austin, TX
Original Question:
===================
God in his infinite wisdom knows even our thoughts. Then why are we
repeating the same prayers over and over, as if He was not listening
to us the first time. Is it just to make our service longer? Is there
a theological reason?
Mar Barnabas explains:
Why do we need to pray?
=======================
There is nothing that our God does not know. Then why have been told
to ask for our needs? ("Ask and it will be given to you..")
From our side, there should be a receptivity (ability to receive) to
effectively receive the blessings from above. We must be transformed
so that we may be able to receive God's blessings.
When we ask with the sincere consiousness of our needs, we get
answers. ["Avashya Bodhathode yaachikumbol utharam labhikkum"].
We have a God who sees our needs as His own. Just like a father or a
mother knows the child's needs.Yet, the prayers are needed to make a
difference on our side.By prayer, we develop a conciousness for our
true needs(Avashyabodham), we increase in our faith and our sense of
dependence on the Lord, we surrender ourselves before God, it is for
these experiences that we need to pray. We need to pray with
repentance, with tears.
There are various parables which show seekers as asking persistently
and the Master(or King or Lord) responding, sometimes the response
seems to be to end the "irritation"(for lack of a better word) of the
persistence.["Shallyam Maratte!"].
In Luke 18, we see the parable of a widow...["Shallyam Maratte!"] The
judge who feared neither God nor man vindicated the widow just so
that she stops bothering him. However, we should not picture God
exactly like a irritant master - the prayers are there to make the
change within ourselves.Sometimes our prayers are not realistic,
sometimes the prayers may be selfish, sometimes the needs we ask for
may not really be needed by us, though we may not realise. So
sometimes the answer to us may be a "No, you dont need that now".
So our prayers are not for God's repentance, not to create a change
in the hardened heart of God, our God's heart is already changed,
always willing to accept us inspite of our failings.
Prayer increases Faith in God.
------------------------------
We reach the fullness of Faith by prayer. It is when this happens
that God can work. We see in the Bible God first increasing the faith
of people before healing them. Consider the deaf and dumb man(Luke
7:32 ff)He touched his ears, spat and touched his tongue, sighed and
said "Ephathatha".Jesus did all this on him(as opposed to just
commanding that he be healed), This He did to increase his faith,
before actually healing Him.See the parable of the two blind men -
(St. Matthew 9:27 ff)..God knew they had come to be healed, He asks
them if they believed He could indeed heal them, thus assessing their
faith, He healed..God can only work where there is faith.
Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever.
There is a story said by one Mr. M Thomas who has now passed away. A
son asks his father for a camera. The father tells the child" You are
too young now to handle a camera, if you get one now, you will not be
able to operate it properly, as a result, it will go bad and you
yourselves will be depressed. So wait till you grow up, then I will
buy you the best camera."
Many times, our Lord's answer may be in this manner. We do not know.
Sometimes the prayers are answered instantly, sometimes He asks us to
wait.So, in summary, the prayers are not to change God.
Formulation of Prayer forms:
==============================
As per our tradition, we had only the Lord's prayer in the early
times. Then the different parts of the Kauma began to take
shape. "Hail Mary" was an appendix added later. The Kauma inculcates
many aspects of worship. It is a complete prayer in itself.
How many times to pray this now? As it developed, it was thought of
as praying the Kauma at the beginning and end of each prayer. The
tradition came about to pray atleast 3 times a day – in the morning,
noon and evening. So each time if we have the Kauma twice, we began
to have the practice of repeating the Kauma 6 times a day. Actually
there are other times we pray as per our tradition, 7 times a day. So
we actually had the Kauma repeated about 14 times a day atleast. But
today, people do not find enough time, thus these prayers are advised
for Sanyasis and monks. For people in family life every thing is an
adjustment today. But the advice is atleast pray the Kauma daily.
How many times to pray?
=======================
Now why so many times? How many times should we kiss a child we love?
We kiss the child once, then we kiss the child again.. why kiss
again? Is the kiss the first time not enough? No, we kiss again, then
again, then again and again..
Many things in life are not bound by reason. Each time we kiss the
child our experience is special and unique.
Think of two lovers talking..how long do they need to talk? They talk
for hours together!
St.Francis of Assissi,(I think) used to pray "My Lord and my God" "My
Lord and my God" again and again and again all night!
This is a spiritual experience. Each time we pray our experience is
unique.
More than reasons or logic like how long is the prayer, is the
feeling of the heart("ManoBhavam") and the spiritual ecstacy that
counts here.Sometimes when we pray, we enjoy a spiritual bliss in
half an hour of prayer, the next day, we may only need 5 minutes for
the same experience.
However, in out public worship, we have tried to maintain a standard,
so that our prayers are not too long, or too short, to provide a
balance – to provide a guideline to pray even if we are not feeling
like praying on a given day - in arriving at the spiritual
experience.
"Prayer is the sincere desire of the soul". We express it time and
again. The first time's experience is not the experience the second
time, which is still different from the next time.
Holy are thou O God, Holy art thou Almighty, Holy art thou Immortal,
Crucified for us, have mercy on us! He died in the past on the cross
for our sakes, today he is ready to suffer other sufferings for our
sake. As we meditate on these and pray, it has a whole new meaning,
when we recite slowly, when we meditate and pray, the spiritual
experience increases. Then it will not matter how long or how many
times we are repeating.
How do we know if our prayers are correct?
===========================================
We simply need to put forward our needs in prayer as we see them, and
submit before the will of God as Jesus did - 'Lord, if possible, let
this cup of suffering pass by me, but not my will, let your will be
done'. We should train ourselves to pray the same way.
At the same time we must pray to save us from tests beyond our
strengths.
We must pray to give strength to stand up to all tests and
tribulations.
"Shakthikku apparamaaya pareekshayil ninnu rakshikkaname, ennu
praarthikkanam"
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianOrthodox/message/8279
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